Posts by Let go of fear

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@FayeDunaway: Thank you for the clarification. The last thing I want to do is misrepresent anyone's beliefs. I am somewhat familiar with the HCSB, but does it actually use LORD in all caps in the NT when quoting the OT? That's what I am after: a translation that is faithful to the Hebrew text (by using some form of YHWH), while also making some attempt in the NT to clarify the "lords" by designating YHWH with LORD in all caps (but clearly avoiding the trappings of using Jehovah/Yahweh). I know many translations that render YHWH faithfully in the OT, and a few that use LORD (again, all caps) in the NT, but NONE that combine the two (the one that comes closest to this that I am familiar with is Darby's translation, which uses Jehovah consistently in the OT, but uses it only in footnotes in NT passages where he feels YHWH applies-the main text still uses undistinguished "lords")

@Island Man: You make some very good points that are worth some serious consideration. I have also wondered at times if the NT writers purposely avoided using YHWH (except in abbreviated form-see Rev. 19) in order to avoid needless persecution. That would actually work with my theory that YHWH was there in the originals, but due to Jewish custom, was not only not translated but also not pronounced. However, I feel compelled to point out that you are not correct in stating that the LXX the NT writers were quoting from were later versions that only represented the name with "kyrios." Although they are not many, all LXX fragments dated prior to and INCLUDING the first century AD either use YHWH in Hebrew characters or use the Greek form "IAO" Even many versions discovered after the 1st century (all of which were probably produced by copyists who were Jews or Jewish proselytes) continue this pattern. Still, as you pointed out, it is entirely possible that it was the Christians, beginning with the NT writers themselves, that used Kyrios to represent in writing God's name in order to avoid further persecution. That being said, keep in mind--and I think this is an important point--it appears quite clear that ABBREVIATED forms of the name (such as Jah, and possibly IAO) were acceptable in both speech and writing. For example, it is interesting to note that even in the Greek versions that substitute YHWH with Kyrios, the expression "Alleluia" (Paise Jah) is never removed; it is even included in all manuscripts of Revelation, as well as all LXX MS. Just some food for thought : )

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@FayeDunaway: No, I do not believe that Jesus is/was "God," as in Yahweh/Jehovah. That is all I really care to say on the subject.

@: Yes! I completely agree, and this is what the NWT should have done, in order to avoid the problems it runs into by rendering Kyrios as Jehovah. It could have also place footnotes saying something like "The translators believe that "lord" here refers to Jehovah." (see Darby's translation, he actually does this in the NT). Are you (or anyone else participating in this topic) aware of any translation that consistently uses Jehovah (or Yahweh) in the OT AND used LORD in all caps in the NT when the NT writer is quoting divine name containing scripture? That is a translation I would like to get a hold of, because every translation I've come across, it's either no divine name or divine name where it doesn't belong!

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@jhine: While I am not interested in debating the Trinity, I have to completely disagree with you. If anything, the Bible, regardless of what translation you are using (even one that has removed YHWH from the OT), makes it quite clear that there is a difference between the Father and the Son (not to mention the holy spirit). But I understand where you are coming from, I have similar concerns about WTBTS. But trust me, as someone who was part of both Evangelical and Catholic churches growing up (long story, not enough time to explain here! lol), I can tell you that the churches of "Christendom" are equally obnoxious in their determination to assure themselves and others that their doctrines are "the truth." Although I am no longer a witness (nor do I believe any longer in the infallibility/inerrancy/inspiration/whatever of the Bible), I still believe that JW's, despite all their problems, have a much more reasonable and accurate understanding of the Bible overall. Believe me, the explanations they provided for 99% of questions I had, while not COMPLETELY satisfying, were night and day compared to the mumbo jumbo, confused and mystifying explanations I would always get from various priests, pastors and others. Just my opinion, I understand if others come to different conclusions.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@jhine: I partially agree with you. There are undoubtedly a number of NT passages that quote an OT prophecy that contains the divine name but applied to the context of Jesus. A good example would be John the Baptist (or, excuse me, "baptizer" lol) quoting Isaiah's prophecy stating "make way for the path of the LORD". The original scripture John quoted contained YHWH, yet he is clearly applying this to the "coming" of Jesus. But he is most certainly not saying that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person/entity/being/whatever. A more reasonable conclusion would be that Jesus is God's chief representative, and therefore John's application of the original divine name containing prophecy is appropriate. By the way, although I'm sure "Watchtower thinking" does still linger with many ex-JWs, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Most Bible scholars I have researched (who are neither JW nor have any particular doctrinal investment) seem to agree with this understanding of the relationship between God and Christ (as opposed to the belief that Jehovah/Yahweh is the "Old Testament" name of God and Jesus is the "New Testament" name of God, a belief that I always found extremely bizarre even before I ever learned anything about what JW's believe).

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@Jerome: Again, I am not interested in debating the original pronunciation of God's name or any other biblical names. I'm a bit taken back by your statement "Names such as Jehovah or Yahweh are not in the Bible and Jesus never spoke such names. They were added." They were not "added." Those names are English translations of the Hebrew Tetragram, and the the tetragram appears some 6,000+ times in the original Hebrew manuscripts (plus some Greek translations), more than any other name in the entire Bible. If you are going to be fixated on things such as the fact that there is no "J" in Hebrew, then there are hundreds of names in the Bible (Joshua, Jeremiah, Jehosophat, etc, etc.) that we are going to have to get rid of. Finally, regarding your statement that Jesus did not ever pronounce God's name: Jesus, as well as his apostles, quoted from many OT scriptures that used YHWH. The Greek manuscripts substitute the name with "Kyrios" as there was no equivalent in the Greek language (the Jewish scribes having refused to translate the name), NOT because Jesus and his followers didn't believe that God had a personal name.

@Phizzy: That is exactly my point. I don't want to be dogmatic about this, its just my theory, but if the custom in the 1st century LXX was to leave YHWH untranslated, and the NT writers made great use of that same LXX, then they probably followed the same custom of using YHWH in OT quotations. It also stands to reason then that, due to their Jewish upbringing as well as their not being a real Greek equivalent of the name, they also follow the custom of pronouncing the Hebrew YHWH when read in a Greek text as "Kyrios (sometimes "Theos"). Then again, I am also open to the possibility that the NT originals DID use Kyrios to represent God's name. But then this opens a can of worms: how did one distinguish between the two "lords" (God and Christ)? If the early Jewish Christians were asked by a Gentile what the name of their God was, what would they tell them? That their God has no name?? That would be outright false, as the name WAS still known (even if not commonly pronounced) by Jewish Christians in the 1st century.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@TTWSYF: I'm not sure what you mean by God's name being "subjective." If you mean that there is no certainty in how it was originally pronounced, then I completely agree (this also applies to the name of "Jesus" as well as many other Biblical names).

@Giordano: Thank you for the kind welcome!

@All: Quite honestly, I'm not interested in debating the pronunciation of the name (there are plenty of other postings regarding this). I'm specifically interested in discussing the possibility of the tetragram having been in the original NT manuscripts. My belief (based on spending much time researching many sources) is that YHWH was rendered in the original NT scripts as Hebrew characters (see the LXX of the time), although probably not nearly as frequently as the NWT uses it. I also believe that due to A) the NT writers Jewish upbringing and B) the lack of a Greek equivalent to the FULL divine name, the early Christian congregations most likely did not pronounce it as liberally as the Watchtower believes that they did. It is on these points that I'd like to focus the discussion.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@Crazyguy: I've seen some of those references as well, but IMHO I don't think they played a major role on the removal of YHWH from the Greek Scriptures. Again, this is just my theory, but I think that knowing everything we know about the time period, it is more likely that later Gentile copyists decided to just "translate" the "strange" Hebrew characters into what they honestly believed was the Greek equivalent.

@Phizzy: I agree there is more or less a consensus that in the First Century CE the name was not commonly pronounced; however, all the evidence for this period shows that this was a result of a CUSTOM and NOT an outright prohibition (according to the Mishnah and other Rabbinic sources, a legal prohibition took place around 200CE). The name was used in religious services at the temple, even if it was not typically used in everyday speech (and especially not with Gentiles). It is also evident that while the FULL name was to be avoided, abbreviated forms such as "Jah" were permitted (For evidence of this, consider the Greek "Alleluia" in both the LXX and NT). Regarding God's name rendered as "Jehovah," I see no reason to treat this with disdain. It is an appropriate English translation of the divine name. It may not have been the way it was pronounced in ancient times, but the same is true for names like "Jesus." (or consider JAMES-now THAT is not exactly a very Hebraic sounding name, is it?)

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

I had the opportunity to ask an expert on early manuscripts from Birmingham (uk) university about this .He came to give a talk at our church and was catorgoric about the fact that the Tetragrammaton was not in any manuscripts of the NT found so far .He was incredulous at the suggestion of a conspiracy to remove it saying that the logistics involved in doing that would be impossible .

That YHWH has not been found in any NT text yet is absolutely correct, and it MAY very well be true that it was not used in the original texts either. Still, it is wholly POSSIBLE that YHWH was used in the originals (a common practice at the time when it came to the LXX), but that eventually (possibly as early as the latter part of the 1st century), the then predominantly gentile church, rather than copying a foreign language word in the midst of the text, decided to simplify things and translate it as "kyrios," as this was there understanding of what YHWH meant. After all, that is probably how the NT writers themselves would pronounce it, considering both their Jewish upbringing as well as the fact that there was no Greek equivalent at the time.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

"SIMEON THE JUST (): High priest. He is identical either with Simeon I. (310-291 or 300-271 b.c.), son of Onias I., and grandson of Jaddua, or with Simeon II. (219-199 b.c.), son of Onias II... After Simeon's death men ceased to utter the tetragrammaton aloud (Yoma 30b; Tosef Sotah. xiii.)"

This may or may not have been the case. If it is true, it was a "man made rule" and not a "scriptural" one (i.e., a commandment based in OT texts). With that in mind, the NT makes it clear that Jesus emphatically rejected such "traditions of men." Nevertheless, I am inclined to believe (for a number of reasons I won't get into now) that the FULL name, i.e., the tetragram, was rarely used in conversation among the Jews of the 1st century. Still, when the early Christians expanded their ministry beyond the Jews to the Gentiles, what would they say when someone asked what the name of their god was? Would Paul simply say (as Josephus did in his writings) "I am forbidden to speak it!" That really does not seem plausible to me. I would imagine his response would be something along the lines of "there actually is no equivalent in your language, but in Hebrew it is pronounced...."

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

I've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession. After researching the issue for several years, I have come to a conclusion/theory that I would love to receive some feedback on. This theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original NT scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't. Here goes:

It is true, as the WT frequently mentions, that the earliest Septuagint fragments prior to, during and even after the 1st century contain the divine name in some form of the tetragram (or in some cases, the greek IAO, whatever that was!). Therefore, it is certainly reasonable to believe that the greek texts that Jesus, his apostles and the early Christian congregations were familiar with did have some form of the name in it. However, if, as the WT concludes, the NT writers continued this Jewish practice (using tetragram in the NT greek), then it is also reasonable to believe that they continued the Jewish practice of NOT pronouncing the name when they came across it in the text. This would explain why later copyists of the NT (as well as the Sept.), most of whom at this later time were Gentiles, would simply render "Kyrios" (something familiar to them) as they believed that this was the Greek equivalent (or at least one of them) of the "strange" Hebrew word, YHWH. I feel this is a more satisfying explanation as opposed to the melodramatic WT belief that the name was removed because of some Trinitarian conspiracy (keep in mind that-and this is something that is strangely absent from most discussions on this controversy-there was no real equivalent of the divine name in Greek or any other language outside of Hebrew, since, other than some abbreviated forms such as "IAO" or "Alleluia" the Jewish scribes did not fully translate it)

I know this topic has been covered previously, but I am new to this forum and would love to hear anyone's thoughts on my conclusions, as I feel it is a sort of "third-way" explanation. I am open to any constructive critique!